PEOPLE
Shaunagh Brown’s CV is something to behold: gas engineer, firefighter, commercial diver, Commonwealth Games competitor, boxer and international rugby player are all among the roles listed, and she’s only 34 years old. Willing to embrace a challenge hardly covers it – she is testament to trying things out and seeing what happens. And this disregard for risk certainly pays off – she was playing international rugby within two years of taking up the game.
When we speak she’s been back to back on video calls and on the phone to BBC radio, previewing the women’s Six Nations – she tries to stay involved with the England girls.
You’ve explored so many avenues in your life! Gas engineer, firefighter, hammer thrower… Has it been a conscious thing, to really diversify your skill set?
Shaunagh
In the beginning, it would have come from my mum and my upbringing. We were a single-parent family living in a Housing Association rented home, so we didn’t have a lot of spare money. Any time holidays came, she would find something for me to do. She worked in the youth offending team so she knew of a lot of schemes and campaigns that were going on where young people could go and do something with no cost to them. So much of what I did was just about finding either what was free or really cheap. Those pots of money move to different sports or activities, meaning I tried so much.
So that’s where it started and then, as I got older, I was just offered different opportunities. Now I would say I actively seek change. Even small things like driving a different way home because I get bored of driving the same way, or making an effort to change an outfit. When we’re at training, we have a kit, a uniform, and I’ll try and change the combinations of what I’m wearing. I like changing my hair, having different patterns in my hair. I thrive on learning something new and being in a different space.
I don’t say yes to things that are not in my interest or I can’t logistically fit in. But I try and say yes as often as possible, to the point where people ask me; ‘do you want to have a go at X?’ And the question in my head is: ‘why not? Is there a reason I shouldn’t do it?’ If there’s no reason I shouldn’t do it, then I like to do it, as opposed to thinking of reasons that I shouldn’t. Then you meet somebody else when you go to that event, and it all just cascades off each other. You say yes where you can and where you want to, and who knows where you’ll end up next week, next month. I get invited to do some really cool things, all because I said yes to someone maybe two or three years ago.
You say yes where you can and where you want to, and who knows where you’ll end up next week, next month. I get invited to do some really cool things, all because I said yes to someone maybe two or three years ago.
Do you think it’s important not to pigeonhole yourself?
Shaunagh
For sure. I wouldn’t want to pigeonhole myself because, in my view, that’s what society wants us to do. What it needs us to do. I don’t put myself in certain boxes unless I want to; it’s all on me. I don’t let other people put me in boxes. Then I come to realise I’m a threat to society because of that – in terms of my mind, the way I think, the way I don’t think, the way I actively encourage others to think.
Whether you’re a female, mixed race, whether you went to a state school, or maybe you’re from the foster care system. Society wants you to think ‘I’m not worthy’ sometimes. It can be really tough being the only different type of person in the room, maybe the only wheelchair user in the room for instance. That is tough but I’ve found it’s worth it in the end when people get used to seeing you and, suddenly, you are just another person in the room. You’re a bit different, which is great, and now we celebrate that.
What does exploration mean to you? And has that changed over the course of your career?
Shaunagh
Exploration is adventure. It’s about going out and doing something different, learning something different, meeting somebody new, going into the unknown. Not knowing what your day looks like tomorrow. That unknown, the adventure – not being afraid to learn something new, do something that you have absolutely no idea how to do. You explore and you learn.
Learning is something you seem to support strongly, especially the talent pipeline in women’s rugby. How do you feel women’s sport is being managed and nurtured today?
Shaunagh
It’s getting better and better but the bar is still quite low – across our culture, across society, within so many different roles. Sport is certainly pushing that bar constantly and it gets higher, week on week. The Rugby World Cup’s coming in 2025 for women: England want to sell out Twickenham for the final, which is 82,000. You’ve got countries giving more and more full-time contracts to players so they don’t have to work alongside being an international rugby player. Of all the teams at the last World Cup, only about four or five of them would have been full time, so there’s still a long way to go, but it’s moving in the right direction.
I would always want it to move quicker but it is also way ahead of so many industries that are male dominated, and I think a lot of that is to do with the public-facing side of it. If women’s sport is not on TV, people are now kicking up a fuss, or if the quality of footage is not as good, people are now making noise about it – whereas in an industry like engineering, construction, they don’t ask questions.
My husband is an engineer so I’ll always ask him; ‘how many women did you have in the office today? How many women were on that course?’ The layperson doesn’t know that kind of thing because it’s not public facing. Unless you’re like me, you don’t walk past a construction site and think: there’s not a single woman in a yellow jacket and a hard hat on over there. (I genuinely do that. That’s just the way my brain is wired.) Traditional work industries are trying, but I guess they’re not forced as much because they’re not in the public eye as much.
I’ve noticed that sporting venues feel special when they aren’t created for just one type of person – but instead when you can be yourself when you walk into it.
World Rugby is expanding its female coach development programme – what’s your take on this?
Shaunagh
It’s really positive and it’s brave. You get naysayers because it’s a female-only programme and many people ask; ‘why is there not a men-only programme? Men need help as well.’ But this is about challenging the fact that women are constantly told they can just ‘do the admin’ or be a physio, maybe be a doctor, but they’re probably not going to be a coach – because ‘you don’t know enough about rugby to be a coach; you don’t have enough experience of X to be in Y role’. Coaching can be quite physical so, then, what does that look like around maternity and having babies? How disproportionately are women affected by decisions around how the coaching system is set up? Being able to give up a whole weekend to go and do the coaching course in the first place – that’s an advantage that traditionally, and still largely, only men have had. It’s just about giving women equality of opportunity. It’s about equity – it’s not about treating everybody the same, it’s about giving an extra helping hand to those who need it because of other reasons that mean they aren’t getting it in the first place. Often men are there because of previous opportunities in the past 20, 50, 70 years, so women do sometimes need that extra push to get up there.
Any time I go to rugby and hear afrobeats I’m like: ‘yeah, nice’. I’ve noticed that sporting venues feel special when they aren’t created for just one type of person – but instead when you can be yourself when you walk into it. Does it make you feel confident and feel safe as a woman? If you’re a dad with you baby, is there nappy changing in the men’s toilets as well? Can you hear your type of music if you don’t normally hear it in public space?
Since retiring from international rugby, how have you kept on pushing boundaries?
Shaunagh
When I’m at rugby, I’ll be the only person of colour, or from South London, or state school. I’ll be part of a panel discussion and I’ll be the only person in the room who’s not white. When I go into big corporations, I might be the only person who’s never been to university, so me just existing seems to constantly push boundaries.
I’ve learnt not to be ashamed of being different – and instead encouraging other people to embrace my difference and potentially ask questions about it, show interest, have a working relationship with me or other people who are different. A guy recognising that a woman’s got it a bit harder, and saying that out loud, is a big deal. Saying: ‘You know what? Working in this company as a woman? It’s a bit rubbish, isn’t it? Because I’ve noticed X, Y and Z.’
I like to tell people who feel part of a minority to ask your family, friends, work colleagues: ‘what is it you think I’m really good at?’ You will be surprised at the answers that you get – it will be things that you don’t even think about, that you do every day of the week. You just think it’s normal but everyone else around you thinks: ‘That is magnificent; I’ve never met anybody else who can do it as good as you.’
What do you think are the benefits of embracing difference within a team?
Shaunagh
It’s just like… why wouldn’t you? Why wouldn’t you want to bring the best out of everybody in your team? To do that, you’re going to have to know them, know what their differences are, and celebrate them. It’s also understanding that difference is not just skin colour, sexuality, religion, gender; it is who’s good at what job. You need difference. On the rugby team, we need physically different body types. We need big girls, tall girls, strong girls, fast girls, smaller girls, literally every type of body. If you had 15 of me on the pitch, while it would be a very physical game, there wouldn’t be a lot of running and it would be quite boring to watch. If you had 15 wingers, there’d be a lot of running but not a lot of contact. The whole point of a team is that bringing together of people’s strengths. To do that, and find out what they are, you have to allow them to be themselves, and to do things in their way.
Your husband’s in engineering – do you kind of see any parallels between your two work worlds?
Shaunagh
I do. He’s a black man, born in the Caribbean, who didn’t come over here until he was 23. So he’s often the minority in the room for several reasons – being born not British, coming over as an adult not as a child, still having his St. Lucian accent. And when he was in St. Lucia, the kind of engineering he did was different too – he was building structures that had to be able to take the effects of hurricane, extreme heat. So, he gets being the different person in the room.
Also the allyship piece: he says that, when he came over, not that many people helped him. But now he’s in the position he is – he’s settled, he’s got his British passport, we’re in a good place – he can now help the ‘hims’ of the future. I teach him how to maximise on being the different person in the room – how, actually, it’s a good thing… so talk about it! For an interview as a CAD technician at a firm in South London, I told him to talk about the fact that he’s from St. Lucia and didn’t grow up with a lot; that everything he is now, he’s made it himself. He arrived in this country with £800 in a backpack and now he’s flying. It’s learning to show off your skills and embrace it and get other people to celebrate what you’ve overcome along with you.
How do you get your head in the right space when you’re required to tackle a huge challenge?
Shaunagh
With great difficulty! My goal was to play for England – once I achieved that, my next one was to play for England in a World Cup. It’s about remembering that, as much as it’s fantastic to enjoy the journey, you might not always enjoy certain aspects of the journey. It’s holding onto the destination. Now I’ve been through it, I can say I’ve done it – for me, that’s everything. So, I dealt with the high-pressure situations and now I get to hold onto my achievements for the rest of my life.
Surely there’s a lot more to come from someone as energetic as yourself. What’s next in terms of your future goals?
Shaunagh
I don’t know! That’s all part of the fun; that’s where me and Benji my husband vary. He needs a plan and I’ve not got a clue what I’m going do in a few months. So, we’re just going with the flow in my household. Well, one of us is…The other is trying!
I like to tell people who feel part of a minority to ask your family, friends, work colleagues: ‘what is it you think I’m really good at?’ You will be surprised at the answers that you get – it will be things that you don’t even think about, that you do every day of the week.
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